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	<title>Comments on: dysphoric about dysphoria</title>
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		<title>By: kvond</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2273</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kvond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2273</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems to me both. 

Let&#039;s take the increasingly ubiquitous image of the dominatrix, in fashion, film, buisness, pop culture. &quot;She&quot;, a new archetypal vision out of a fantasy past is clearly an experssion of the real (eventless) increased economic and political power of women in society, re-sexualized in the register which is over-determined by the role of the feminine gender. This dark image could be considered merely immersed capitalism simply reappropriating and limiting freedoms, but this does not negate the very real powers that come to women as agents of their own sexual demand in the figure of the dominatrix itself. Female economic and political freedoms may be conditioned (and be made less polyvalent) to the sexual register, with women once again forced to articulate themselves (and conceive of themselves) in modes once used more to dominate them (what if I don&#039;t want to demand an orgasm, and I simply want heath insurance), but the forces involved in the sexualization are greater than sexualization alone.

Goth rebellion becomes &quot;The Crow&quot; and &quot;Twilight&quot; but this does not negate the actual and affective experimentations that altererd personal capacities and ultimately the very forms that freedom can take or be grafted onto. Alternate forms of dysphoria, attempts to move passed generic pleasures (which follow generic truth procedures), to risk the pleasure of discomfort is a primary means of the &quot;mutation&quot; of society (a Renaissance word which precedes that of mere &quot;revolution&quot;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me both. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take the increasingly ubiquitous image of the dominatrix, in fashion, film, buisness, pop culture. &#8220;She&#8221;, a new archetypal vision out of a fantasy past is clearly an experssion of the real (eventless) increased economic and political power of women in society, re-sexualized in the register which is over-determined by the role of the feminine gender. This dark image could be considered merely immersed capitalism simply reappropriating and limiting freedoms, but this does not negate the very real powers that come to women as agents of their own sexual demand in the figure of the dominatrix itself. Female economic and political freedoms may be conditioned (and be made less polyvalent) to the sexual register, with women once again forced to articulate themselves (and conceive of themselves) in modes once used more to dominate them (what if I don&#8217;t want to demand an orgasm, and I simply want heath insurance), but the forces involved in the sexualization are greater than sexualization alone.</p>
<p>Goth rebellion becomes &#8220;The Crow&#8221; and &#8220;Twilight&#8221; but this does not negate the actual and affective experimentations that altererd personal capacities and ultimately the very forms that freedom can take or be grafted onto. Alternate forms of dysphoria, attempts to move passed generic pleasures (which follow generic truth procedures), to risk the pleasure of discomfort is a primary means of the &#8220;mutation&#8221; of society (a Renaissance word which precedes that of mere &#8220;revolution&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: Sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2272</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sisyphus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Coming back here because I&#039;ve been chewing on this mentally a bit more and I think there must be some sort of important connection between the concept of &quot;the everyday&quot; and its empty, quotidian, eventlessness (eventlessness? hmm) and the Goth and fantasy subcultures: that somehow these are affective responses to the everyday? A sort of willed return to heroic narratives and senses of time? 

Ok I&#039;m completely ignoring this &quot;militant dysphoria&quot; thing and reading Goth as the opposite, as a symbolic restoration of the self as a hero on a quest as opposed to an ordinary kid immersed in late-capitalist modernity ... no there&#039;s a bigger connection I want to make here but I can&#039;t articulate it...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coming back here because I&#8217;ve been chewing on this mentally a bit more and I think there must be some sort of important connection between the concept of &#8220;the everyday&#8221; and its empty, quotidian, eventlessness (eventlessness? hmm) and the Goth and fantasy subcultures: that somehow these are affective responses to the everyday? A sort of willed return to heroic narratives and senses of time? </p>
<p>Ok I&#8217;m completely ignoring this &#8220;militant dysphoria&#8221; thing and reading Goth as the opposite, as a symbolic restoration of the self as a hero on a quest as opposed to an ordinary kid immersed in late-capitalist modernity &#8230; no there&#8217;s a bigger connection I want to make here but I can&#8217;t articulate it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2251</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2251</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[possibly my favourite post from any blog in 2009

go easy on the old auto-CBT, Ads

http://bit.ly/ZfvOE]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>possibly my favourite post from any blog in 2009</p>
<p>go easy on the old auto-CBT, Ads</p>
<p><a href="http://bit.ly/ZfvOE" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/ZfvOE</a></p>
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		<title>By: kvond</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2250</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kvond]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One should be aware (if you are not a very subtle and ironic writer) that CBT as a shorthand...

&quot;CBT, which is by far the dominant practice in the UK, aims at just that. (Though I will say that I’ve seen some serious and undeniable success stories with CBT and CBTesque therapy, and often practice a bit of auto-CBT on myself, as do we all, I’m sure… Still…)&quot;

...in a context of Goths, perversity, dysphoria and fetishization, has more than one meaning. If of course you mean it with double meaning, I applaud your duplicitous commentary.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One should be aware (if you are not a very subtle and ironic writer) that CBT as a shorthand&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;CBT, which is by far the dominant practice in the UK, aims at just that. (Though I will say that I’ve seen some serious and undeniable success stories with CBT and CBTesque therapy, and often practice a bit of auto-CBT on myself, as do we all, I’m sure… Still…)&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;in a context of Goths, perversity, dysphoria and fetishization, has more than one meaning. If of course you mean it with double meaning, I applaud your duplicitous commentary.</p>
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		<title>By: Ads</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2248</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ads]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 14:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2248</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, that&#039;s just the paradox that I&#039;m worried about!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that&#8217;s just the paradox that I&#8217;m worried about!</p>
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		<title>By: will</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2245</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[will]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2245</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[\&quot;Does reform, despite what Dominic says, slip in the backdoor at some stage in this process?\&quot;

I would say that the answer is yes. With \&#039;The aim is not to reform the world so that one will at last be comfortable in it\&#039; the point Dominic is making is that you don\&#039;t let dysphoria set the terms of the debate. Remember Marx\&#039;s formulation: the abnegation of the working class. Just as the valorisation of the working class leads to the defects of state socialism, there are problems inherent in promoting personal satisfaction. But I see your point in asking where this is going. Happiness would have to come into the answer -- so there is a paradox in that, which makes your comparison with Christianity apt. 
Esp. \&quot;both Christianity and militiant dysphoria are far more invested in the pathologization of pleasure in the present than the arrival of some sort of misty reward after the redemption\&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>\&#8221;Does reform, despite what Dominic says, slip in the backdoor at some stage in this process?\&#8221;</p>
<p>I would say that the answer is yes. With \&#8217;The aim is not to reform the world so that one will at last be comfortable in it\&#8217; the point Dominic is making is that you don\&#8217;t let dysphoria set the terms of the debate. Remember Marx\&#8217;s formulation: the abnegation of the working class. Just as the valorisation of the working class leads to the defects of state socialism, there are problems inherent in promoting personal satisfaction. But I see your point in asking where this is going. Happiness would have to come into the answer &#8212; so there is a paradox in that, which makes your comparison with Christianity apt.<br />
Esp. \&#8221;both Christianity and militiant dysphoria are far more invested in the pathologization of pleasure in the present than the arrival of some sort of misty reward after the redemption\&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ads</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ads]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Like your comment very much, S. What you&#039;re saying in your third paragraph sounds interesting to me - Goth as Butlerian performativity, a lot like drag. Performativity is something that I actually have a lot of time for - even if it&#039;s a lot more liberal than radical, despite what everyone thought back in the nineties. (There is a way that Will and Grace becomes the ultimate norm shifting performance etc, which is probably both true and a tiny bit disquieting - but still...) Liberalizing performativity at least is a model that has a sense of the mechanics of change, and what the change might look like when it gets there. But Dominic&#039;s argument isn&#039;t in favor of the advancement of alternate pleasures - it&#039;s for the militant (and scalable) embrace of no pleasures at all. 

&lt;i&gt;And if Goths are externalizing, performing their unhappiness even, rather than shutting up and hiding it, then that refusal, or militant dysphoria, has some potentiality for progressive action, no?&lt;/i&gt;

Again, if the aim is simply making room for asexuality and anhediona, that&#039;s fine. But that would be in contradiction of the announced aim, which &quot;is not to reform the world so that one will at last be comfortable in it.&quot; I just can&#039;t see how any of this works without leaving the door open to the resolution of the problems that led to the anhedonia in the first place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like your comment very much, S. What you&#8217;re saying in your third paragraph sounds interesting to me &#8211; Goth as Butlerian performativity, a lot like drag. Performativity is something that I actually have a lot of time for &#8211; even if it&#8217;s a lot more liberal than radical, despite what everyone thought back in the nineties. (There is a way that Will and Grace becomes the ultimate norm shifting performance etc, which is probably both true and a tiny bit disquieting &#8211; but still&#8230;) Liberalizing performativity at least is a model that has a sense of the mechanics of change, and what the change might look like when it gets there. But Dominic&#8217;s argument isn&#8217;t in favor of the advancement of alternate pleasures &#8211; it&#8217;s for the militant (and scalable) embrace of no pleasures at all. </p>
<p><i>And if Goths are externalizing, performing their unhappiness even, rather than shutting up and hiding it, then that refusal, or militant dysphoria, has some potentiality for progressive action, no?</i></p>
<p>Again, if the aim is simply making room for asexuality and anhediona, that&#8217;s fine. But that would be in contradiction of the announced aim, which &#8220;is not to reform the world so that one will at last be comfortable in it.&#8221; I just can&#8217;t see how any of this works without leaving the door open to the resolution of the problems that led to the anhedonia in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://adswithoutproducts.com/2009/06/16/dysphoric-about-dysphoria/#comment-2233</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sisyphus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 03:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adswithoutproducts.com/?p=1748#comment-2233</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm, I&#039;ve actually read a little bit on Goth culture (like Carol Siegel&#039;s Goth&#039;s Dark Empire) and the stuff I&#039;ve seen reads Goth in terms of perversity rather than anhedonia --- a refusal of the &quot;compulsory pleasures&quot; of mainstream society (I did like Dominic&#039;s discussion of that idea) rather than a refusal of pleasure. 

Siegel has a nice chapter contextualizing the big flowering of Goth in the US in terms of the abstinence-only, don&#039;t-even-look-at-someone-sexually-or-you&#039;ll-get-AIDS-and-die, and claims that Goth kids embrace both sex and death, reveling in what their elders admonish against. 

Now I ran some of her other claims about class status and the gender rules of Goth by some friends who actually were Goth back in the 90s and they said she was full of crap (basically she seems to only have interviewed college kids and not the working-class Goths who were more central to the movement and the drug scene). But other parts of her argument I liked. 

And if Goths are externalizing, performing their unhappiness even, rather than shutting up and hiding it, then that refusal, or militant dysphoria, has some potentiality for progressive action, no? Unfortunately it gets paired in Goth with a Byronic individualism and obsession with past aristocratic cultures, which makes them less likely to help with the socialist revolution. Ah well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I&#8217;ve actually read a little bit on Goth culture (like Carol Siegel&#8217;s Goth&#8217;s Dark Empire) and the stuff I&#8217;ve seen reads Goth in terms of perversity rather than anhedonia &#8212; a refusal of the &#8220;compulsory pleasures&#8221; of mainstream society (I did like Dominic&#8217;s discussion of that idea) rather than a refusal of pleasure. </p>
<p>Siegel has a nice chapter contextualizing the big flowering of Goth in the US in terms of the abstinence-only, don&#8217;t-even-look-at-someone-sexually-or-you&#8217;ll-get-AIDS-and-die, and claims that Goth kids embrace both sex and death, reveling in what their elders admonish against. </p>
<p>Now I ran some of her other claims about class status and the gender rules of Goth by some friends who actually were Goth back in the 90s and they said she was full of crap (basically she seems to only have interviewed college kids and not the working-class Goths who were more central to the movement and the drug scene). But other parts of her argument I liked. </p>
<p>And if Goths are externalizing, performing their unhappiness even, rather than shutting up and hiding it, then that refusal, or militant dysphoria, has some potentiality for progressive action, no? Unfortunately it gets paired in Goth with a Byronic individualism and obsession with past aristocratic cultures, which makes them less likely to help with the socialist revolution. Ah well.</p>
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